(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:2.5.0.0]CA[UTF-8]
GN[U.S. Open - Round 6 - Board 1 - 2009 US Go Congrsss - Kim, Myung-Wan 8p vs Ge, Yongfei 7d]
PW[Kim, Myung-Wan]WR[8p]
PB[Ge, Yongfei]BR[7d]
EV[U.S. Open]RO[6]
DT[2009-08-08]
PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
KM[7.5]
US[Solomon Smilack]
RU[AGA]ST[2]
TM[7200.0]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
C[U.S. Open - Round 6 - Board 1 - 2009 US Go Congress - Kim, Myung-Wan 8p vs Ge, Yongfei 7d
August 8, 2009
Commentary: Feng Yun 9P, transcribed by Chris Garlock
Recorded by Solomon Smilack
Broadcast on KGS

KoReNJe [3d\]: wa
derPlumps [3d\]: hi
menikmati [4k\]: wa
daladim [1k\]: hello
KoReNJe [3d\]: where is takemiya :p
YobaLegend [5k\]: Lםך
YobaLegend [5k\]: Lol
sameasyou [2d\]: who is commenting?
USGO10 [-\]: Welcome to our final professional US Open game commentary!
Leothelion [4k\]: 9p player
HandA [1k\]: I missed Takemiya damn
Onmyoji [2d\]: i hope she understands what an honor it is to comment on tartrate's game
USGO1 [-\]: Please keep kibbitzing to a minimum so that the commentator does not have to compete, and so that questions may be heard and answered.
USGO10 [-\]: We're very pleased and honored to have Feng Yun 9P as our commentator today
helloworld [3k\]: this really tartrate?
goatsunday [6k?\]: moderated chat pls!
sameasyou [2d\]: USGO10 is my favourite USGO account :)
Hellhuman [4k\]: who of this both is tartrate meant to be?
KoReNJe [3d\]: no voice comments?
daladim [1k\]: w
sameasyou [2d\]: please not moderated
Rocker [4d\]: FENG FENG !
Onmyoji [2d\]: YUN
USGO10 [-\]: She will review the game and is happy to try to answer your questions
mcw85 [7k\]: Just moderate it, please.
Deva [1d\]: moderated, or mute rocker :-)
KoReNJe [3d\]: no
Leothelion [4k\]: Thank you Mr. Feng Yun
]
;B[dp]
C[KoReNJe [3d\]: haha
];W[pd];B[dc];W[pp];B[nc];W[qf]
C[goatsunday [6k?\]: Ms.
just9x9 [-\]: hehe moderated except for rpcker and korenje
mcw85 [7k\]: Feng Yun is female.
]
;B[kd];W[cf]
C[Leothelion [4k\]: so Mrs :)
coldnight [1k\]: yes a she is one of the strongest female pros in the world
KoReNJe [3d\]: how old is she?
]
(;B[ch]
C[Onmyoji [2d\]: FENG CAN U READ THIS
coldnight [1k\]: please can you repet
KoReNJe [3d\]: so it's indirect communication with a pro?
]
;W[bd]
C[mcw85 [7k\]: Just kick anyone who trolls.
USGO10 [-\]: When I first see this move, I thought this is new JOseki
derPlumps [3d\]: as this is no teacher account, there is only quiet mode - no moderation possible
sameasyou [2d\]: Onmyoji please be quiet and only talk about the game or else they will moderate this...u screwed us once yesterday already
USGO10 [-\]: I = Feng Yun
Onmyoji [2d\]: WAT
Hellhuman [4k\]: come on, just shut up and watch her commentary
mianreg [5k\]: please no caps lock, onmyoji
pebarefoot [-\]: a little respect , please
coldnight [1k\]: does not look like a joseki  move its very  slow locally
USGO10 [-\]: I study this move for one min. but could not find why this is good move
derPlumps [3d\]: is it better for white to touch at d16 ?
Onmyoji [2d\]: tartrate move too high level
Shadowrun [6k\]: kick onmo***
coldnight [1k\]: no its a misstake
KoReNJe [3d\]: lol
USGO1 [-\]: Sorry, it was recorded in the wrong order, sorry to have wasted your time.
holycarp [-\]: tool quet chat mode
USGO10 [-\]: later find out it was recorder error
mianreg [5k\]: seems as if B wanted to force a classical kobayashi variant
]
(;B[de]
C[coldnight [1k\]: repeat*
sweety [-\]: Please behave & enjoy commentary, folks. Otherwise we'll set the Quiet mode
]
;W[df];B[ce];W[be];B[cc]
(;W[dh];B[di];W[eh]
(;B[bg];W[bf]
(;B[dk]
C[USGO10 [-\]: I do not like this black's move
Onmyoji [2d\]: how many handicap does feng yun need from tartrate?
USGO10 [-\]: gives white sente
USGO10 [-\]: at e11
coldnight [1k\]: still*
]
;W[fe];B[gc];W[ei];B[fq]
C[Rastaman [1k\]: coldnight, you are 1k, she's 9p... We just don't mind what you think...
]
;W[cp]
C[Rocker [4d\]: d9  > c10?
Hellhuman [4k\]: who won this game :?
w1zzle [8k\]: it's going on right now
USGO10 [-\]: black still have the weakness at c11
]
;B[co];W[bo]
C[derPlumps [3d\]: usgo10, you report what feng yun shows at the congress? so it makes sense to ask here?
USGO10 [-\]: she's always looking for moves that attack
USGO10 [-\]: if you have questions for feng yun, yes, please ask
jleone [5k\]: yes, sorry i missed it then, thank you
]
;B[cq];W[bp];B[do]
C[jleone [5k\]: is w g17 good move ?
];W[bq];B[cr];W[cn]
(;B[cl];W[bm];B[dn];W[cm];B[dm];W[bl];B[bk]
(;W[mq]
C[USGO10 [-\]: black now gets a wall/thickness
Godaisuki [1k\]: F3 looks overconcentrated
jleone [5k\]: is better for w now, isn't it ?
USGO10 [-\]: but b also paid a lot for that
Rocker [4d\]: was d9 better than c10?
USGO10 [-\]: b got gote
derPlumps [3d\]: hard to attack top group, no?
jleone [5k\]: is there a better variation for black, i mean in the lower right corner ?
USGO10 [-\]: n3 is a good move
KoReNJe [3d\]: what about o4
USGO10 [-\]: multiple purpose move
USGO10 [-\]: reduce the moyo and also protects the corner
Chilltime [2k\]: is white on the left completly alive?
USGO10 [-\]: yes
Chilltime [2k\]: ok thx :-)
USGO10 [-\]:  white is alive on the left
derPlumps [3d\]: b2 a6 miai
]
;B[qk]LB[qk:A]
C[Rocker [4d\]: mama miai
meuns [2k\]: thanks rocker
meuns [2k\]: ^^
USGO10 [-\]: this is a good invading move
jleone [5k\]: the black wall seems after b n3 is now very powerful
coldnight [1k\]: if white k3 now  black wall will end up with no meaning no?
USGO10 [-\]: can you tell me why?
Pylon [2k\]: 4 space extension both sides
Rocker [4d\]: becuz it is
KoReNJe [3d\]: can make base on 2 sides?
derPlumps [3d\]: miai of nikken hiraki points
Godaisuki [1k\]: R6 and R12
WQ [7k\]: can two space extention either side?
Rocker [4d\]: split , very normal
meuns [2k\]: rocker is trying to troll a pro ! my master !
coldnight [1k\]: largest area and w cant attack too severly 
KoReNJe [3d\]: haha
USGO10 [-\]: that is right, b has two space extention on both sides
]
;W[qi]
C[Pylon [2k\]: oh, it is called two space -.-
KoReNJe [3d\]: I call it base
USGO10 [-\]: however, b has other choices too
Rastaman [1k\]: isn't r6 better ?
Rocker [4d\]: hehe
meuns [2k\]: i like k3
]
(;B[qn]
(;W[qp]LB[rp:A]
C[GoGetta [-\]: S4 good move =)
USGO10 [-\]: this exchange white got bigger corner
Altair [8k\]: why not r5
Shadowrun [6k\]: when r4 and when s4?
Redwalljp [5k\]: if w r6, b r12 and then w would probably settle with q17 or q18 giving b sente and a chance to play k3
sempaii [3k\]: r5 did weakness at san-san
USGO10 [-\]: and the two space extention still not quite settled
coldnight [1k\]: R 5 seems ok twoo but stil has corner aji
Rocker [4d\]: next b move l3 100%
meuns [2k\]: ^^
meuns [2k\]: yes b gets l3 here
jleone [5k\]: why if w answer differently to b s4 ? like spliting in between th etwo b stones ?
USGO10 [-\]: the difference between game move and A
Shadowrun [6k\]: yes
Godaisuki [1k\]: is there's the nozoki
USGO10 [-\]: is that the game move is stronger shape
Godaisuki [1k\]: nozoki at R3
USGO10 [-\]: if w plays at A 
coldnight [1k\]: L3 is much less powerful now
USGO10 [-\]: game move is better
Shadowrun [6k\]: i see but sometimes s4 is played
USGO10 [-\]: stronger shape
]
;B[kq]LB[oq:A]
C[Shadowrun [6k\]: is r4 always better?
meuns [2k\]: s4 is played with o3
meuns [2k\]: not n3
USGO10 [-\]: L3 is a big move
Shadowrun [6k\]: ok
MKv2 [2d\]: with n3 as well
Rocker [4d\]: p9
jleone [5k\]: please, if b plays at A instead of the game move as u sugested, w can olso answer with r6 ..am i wrong ?
USGO10 [-\]: aim at A later
coldnight [1k\]: S4 is often played when black has a stone at R10 no R9
]
;W[on]LB[oq:A]
C[truong1991 [16k?\]: e
USGO10 [-\]: white attack the two stones also protects A invasion
]
(;B[ro];W[rp];B[pb]
C[coldnight [1k\]: S 5 seems kinda wierd cna you explain it please?
coldnight [1k\]: just to get sente?
martin3141 [3k\]: and what about exchanging s5 for s4 and then junp to p9?
]
(;W[ok]
C[USGO10 [-\]: slightly different way, but same idea of attacking
];B[ri]
;W[rj];B[qj];W[rk]
C[USGO10 [-\]: very good: w is taking b's base
USGO10 [-\]: don't want to lose the attack
]
;B[pi]
C[MKv2 [2d\]: it doesn't seem easy to get profit
];W[qh];B[rl]
C[MKv2 [2d\]: how to attack B after taking the base at s7?
];W[rh];B[oj]
;W[pm];B[ql]
C[derPlumps [3d\]: i like the other attack a lot more
]
(;W[cj]TR[di][cl]
C[USGO10 [-\]: forcing move; kind of an asking move
MoussDiouf [11k\]: who is leading now ?
gepay [3k\]: does the cut r8  just take small and lose larger attack
USGO10 [-\]: asking b which stone do you want to save?
coldnight [1k\]: if i was black id just take sente tenuki here
GoArena [-\]: yeah but is this the right moment?
USGO10 [-\]: the issue here has to do with a potential attack on the upper left white group
]
;B[ck]TR[ci]
C[springhill [?\]: imo b is a little bit better 
coldnight [1k\]: i think white is better
MoussDiouf [11k\]: thanx
USGO10 [-\]: now w always has the cut to make an eye, if b starts attacking
]
;W[nj]LB[mk:A]
C[derPlumps [3d\]: this is a helping move, imo
USGO10 [-\]: a jump to A attacks and reduced the center, while the game move pushes B towards W strength; I like it better
]
;B[ni];W[oh]
C[coldnight [1k\]: she likes the move in the game better?
USGO10 [-\]: destroys eye shape
]
(;B[oi];W[mi]
(;B[nh];W[mj];B[ne];W[ko]
C[KoReNJe [3d\]: l5 any good?
Altair [8k\]: whats the answer to m4
GoArena [-\]: isn t l5 giving black too much territory?
USGO10 [-\]: this is to reduce b's potential terr on the left
Manowar7 [3k\]: M4 K2
]
(;B[ip]
C[USGO10 [-\]: so B just take the terr
Kirigo: why not k5 instead of J4?
]
;W[ie]
C[USGO10 [-\]: this reduces b while building up the white moyo
coldnight [1k\]: K5 lets white make a good shape on the out side no?
tigermouse: j4 has continuation k6
USGO10 [-\]: because w has a lot of potential in the center, I'd say the game is good for w
USGO10 [-\]: b had a lot of potential but now w controls the center
derPlumps [3d\]: You?
]
;B[hd];W[he];B[sp]
C[Shadowrun [6k\]: why not o9 atari and p8 take?
menikmati [4k\]: b's wall almost useless ?
jleone [5k\]: b t4 rather small ?
]
;W[rr]LB[nf:A]
C[springhill [?\]: do we have F17 and G18cut
jleone [5k\]: could you comment on b t4, please ?
sempaii [3k\]: s2 seems strange
Calis [1d\]: why didn't w play around J6 rather than aswering T4?
MKv2 [2d\]: i guess it has smth to do with P3
tigermouse: s2 lets t6 open dest eye
USGO10 [-\]: W plays this way to deny B a sente eye
springhill [?\]: J5 is better than s2
USGO10 [-\]: W is aiming at the cut at A, to cut off and kill B
jleone [5k\]: but black group is almost connected ...
USGO10 [-\]: the problem with this move is that it loses points in the endgame
]
(;B[mh]
C[USGO10 [-\]: so b protects the cut
];W[ic]
(;B[ee]
C[KoReNJe [3d\]: what
coldnight [1k\]: huge gain for white
derPlumps [3d\]: he said bye bye to the corner
]
;W[ff]
(;B[qc]
C[KoReNJe [3d\]: oh
];W[lh]
C[coldnight [1k\]: what did E15 change?
USGO10 [-\]: w does not play again on the top because he can always do so, as shown in the variations
USGO10 [-\]: E15 actually doesn't help; the problem is still there
Shadowrun [6k\]: so e15 useless?
derPlumps [3d\]: how will black play on top?
USGO10 [-\]: locally it's a good exchange
]
;B[re]
C[derPlumps [3d\]: as j16 doesnt work 
Manowar7 [3k\]: so why does b play H16 earlier instead J17?
Shadowrun [6k\]: just f16 for b?
USGO10 [-\]: b's trying to catch up, plus this is sente against the right-hand w grp
]
;W[rf];B[jn]
C[USGO10 [-\]: big move; reduce w and expand b
];W[il]TR[ic]
C[USGO10 [-\]: competing moyos
jleone [5k\]: finally what is the gain of w to answer at s3 ?  he forced b to step forward into his center moyo
USGO10 [-\]: before j17, even if b kept all the upper terr, it's prob not enough
USGO10 [-\]: after j17, looks hopeless
Calis [1d\]: what happens if b don't connect at L17 to save the corner?
]
;B[kn];W[kp];B[jp];W[kr];B[lq];W[lr];B[mp];W[jq];B[lp];W[nq];B[jr];W[iq]
;B[ir];W[hq];B[hr];W[lo];B[hp];W[mo]
C[Syanide32 [5k\]: K3????
chute [2k\]: white n13 would establish a ladder, Calis
USGO10 [-\]: this is just about settling shapes
coldnight [1k\]: ladder?
Calis [1d\]: yes but the corner is bigger isn't it?
chute [2k\]: true, but black looses more than by doing nothin
derPlumps [3d\]: sure? xD
Shadowrun [6k\]: thanks for the review
coldnight [1k\]: white seems to be leading by maybe 10 points it looks like if any  kyu player was playing game would stil be open does any one has better countion then me?
springhill [?\]: W is better for sure
coldnight [1k\]: counting*
Calis [1d\]: 10 pts is huge lead for 8p
USGO10 [-\]: so, Feng Yun assessment of the game status:
USGO10 [-\]: A generous count give B 50 points
USGO10 [-\]: W has 30  in the sides and corner, so he needs about 15 in the center (since he gets komi)
USGO10 [-\]: plus, the upper left corner can easily shrink to a handful of points if W plays there first
KoReNJe [3d\]: he's getting around 16 right now in the center :p
USGO10 [-\]: so it looks like a comfortable win for W
springhill [?\]: B should give up in 10 moves
USGO10 [-\]: Are there are any other questions for Femg Yun, on this game or go in general, before she concludes her commentary?
USGO10 [-\]: Feng Yun, that is
Manowar7 [3k\]: yes, why b played H16 not J17?
derPlumps [3d\]: misread? :)
WQ [7k\]: how be get strong at fighting?
Manowar7 [3k\]: that kosumi looks weird shape
USGO10 [-\]: to get sente to protect the top; but it leaves bad aji, as we saw
chute [2k\]: yes: l16 seems a relatively new alternative to k16 - is that still experimental ? 
USGO10 [-\]: it was very big at the time
Shadowrun [6k\]: e15 was like a pass move?
Manowar7 [3k\]: roger that, thanks
USGO10 [-\]: l16 is a fine choice, just depends on player
USGO10 [-\]: b's problem was earlier, as she pointed out on the left side
xedover [5k?\]: when counting during your games, is it better to over estimate or under estimate?
Manowar7 [3k\]: :)
coldnight [1k\]: if you think you are losing over estimate
WQ [7k\]: Hmm, is it general Go question time?
Shadowrun [6k\]: xedover it is better to estimate right - neither over- nor under- estimations are good
holycarp [-\]: options se and estimate from the estimation
Manowar7 [3k\]: thank you for review
jleone [5k\]: was s2 a good answer ? 
Shadowrun [6k\]: thank you
coldnight [1k\]: yes thank you very much
USGO10 [-\]: b's mistakes were not errors or blunders, just some style choices that allowed w to take control of the game
chute [2k\]: thank you
derPlumps [3d\]: thank you usgo10 for transmiting and feng yun for analysis :-)
JK81K [16k\]: yeah, thx
jleone [5k\]: thx
USGO10 [-\]: Thanks very much for watching; hope you enjoyed these commentaries. Watch for our live broadcast of top games from the Cotsen in LA next month, where I'm sure that Myung-Wan Kim will be playing again
Fern [2k\]: thank you
derPlumps [3d\]: usgc over?
ashiza [7k\]: thanks
Uberdude [5d?\]: no
Uberdude [5d?\]: still playing
derPlumps [3d\]: last round?
Uberdude [5d?\]: yes
Uberdude [5d?\]: i believe so
SaurusDNA [7k\]: Game still at USG01
]
;B[np];W[no];B[op];W[oq];B[gq];W[fk];B[kf];W[lg];B[of];W[je];B[ke];W[jg]
;B[kl];W[jk];B[kk];W[kj];B[gl];W[in];B[jo];W[gk];B[br];W[an];B[bc];W[rd]
;B[qd];W[qe];B[rc])
(;B[id];W[jd];B[jc];W[je];B[kc];W[gd];B[hc];W[fc];B[fb];W[gb];B[hb];W[eb]
C[derPlumps [3d\]: e15 purpose?
USGO10 [-\]: if b can't keep the top, the game is pretty much over
]
))
(;B[id];W[jd];B[jc];W[je];B[kc];W[fc];B[fb];W[gd];B[hc];W[gb];B[hb];W[eb]
C[WQ [7k\]: why b player always be away from the table
WQ [7k\]: it's really annoying
USGO10 [-\]: bye bye
]
))
(;B[jn];W[nf];B[mf]
C[derPlumps [3d\]: s6 is no eye here? can you please show it
];W[ng];B[mg]
;W[mh]
C[coldnight [1k\]: black looks dead
USGO10 [-\]: b dies
MKv2 [2d\]: black would go towards the center, this way is obviously bad for B
]
;B[og]))
(;B[lp];W[io];B[iq]
C[coldnight [1k\]: reducing  and making some moyo for white
]))
(;B[nk];W[pk];B[pj];W[mj]
C[coldnight [1k\]: same thing
WQ [7k\]: right
USGO10 [-\]: even worse
USGO10 [-\]: ok?
chute [2k\]: y
]
))
(;B[nk]
C[Shadowrun [6k\]: yes here
MKv2 [2d\]: i cant see where black payed so much to get the d5 wall, white is very low at b5, so w didnt gain a lot either
WQ [7k\]: hmm
USGO10 [-\]: b may atari here...
coldnight [1k\]: R9
]
;W[pk];B[pj]
C[coldnight [1k\]: Q(*
];W[mj]
C[WQ [7k\]: i would like to add something to the question?
USGO10 [-\]: so the atari doesn't work
USGO10 [-\]: sure, go ahead
Shadowrun [6k\]: ah ok nice
WQ [7k\]: after b p11
WQ [7k\]: w can still atari
WQ [7k\]: and i think i work?
WQ [7k\]: it*
]
))
(;W[mk]
C[coldnight [1k\]: why not keep attacking?
USGO10 [-\]: good; w shd keep up the attack and move into the center, towards b's wall, reducing its influence'
]
))
(;W[rm];B[qm];W[rl];B[rk];W[ql];B[pl];W[rn]
C[USGO10 [-\]: This is Feng Yun's style 
sempaii [3k\]: xDD
Oneyek [9k\]: cool ^^
Shadowrun [6k\]: pwnage style
WQ [7k\]: what just happen?
coldnight [1k\]: I agree white must attack:)
sempaii [3k\]: destroy shape
USGO10 [-\]: Severe attack gives her tempo, and the b slide at q18 is big, but not urgent
USGO10 [-\]: w has a lot of stones in the area and b will be under severe attack
USGO10 [-\]: the problem for b in this game is that he gave up a lot to get the wall on the left
USGO10 [-\]: so b needs a target
coldnight [1k\]: and this keeps him from geting it?
USGO10 [-\]: in this case it's hard for b to look forward to much profit because all w's groups are settled
jleone [5k\]: could you show us what is the better variation in the left corner for black ?
USGO10 [-\]: and in this case, not only does b not have a target, he's become the target
Erstnick [?\]: she already did, jleone
]
))
(;B[ok]LB[ph:A][lo:B]
C[USGO10 [-\]: if I were b I would jump out
coldnight [1k\]: there is some thing i alwys wonder about this shape can P8 take almost  every thing here?
derPlumps [3d\]: Q8 you mean
coldnight [1k\]: ERR Q8
USGO10 [-\]: it will b give more followup in center
USGO10 [-\]: A or B for example
]
))
(;W[rp];B[np];W[nq];B[op];W[oq]
C[Rocker [4d\]: thin
];B[po]
C[USGO10 [-\]: b has some forcing moves
]))
(;B[rp]
C[USGO10 [-\]: I like this move better
jleone [5k\]: why is better ?
];W[qp]
;B[ro];W[rq];B[qm]LB[kq:A][oq:B][rr:C]
C[meuns [2k\]: what are the following moves ?
meuns [2k\]: oh too slow thx
coldnight [1k\]: larger base??
USGO10 [-\]: black settled better with good shapes
USGO10 [-\]: also, white's corner getting smaller
Pylon [2k\]: if white encloses no good?
WQ [7k\]: is there anyways w can prevent that?
meuns [2k\]: but w gets j3
Rastaman [1k\]: and if white played r6 instead of r11 ?
USGO10 [-\]: once black has A, black could invade at B
USGO10 [-\]: plus this is an extention from the wall
derPlumps [3d\]: should black test at s2 now?
USGO10 [-\]: black also has C
coldnight [1k\]: white mus  K3 now no?
]
))
(;W[kq];B[mq]LB[kq:A]
C[USGO10 [-\]: A will be too close to black's thickness
]))
(;B[bm]
C[Rocker [4d\]: normal but the only move
USGO10 [-\]: Black G17 is a good move
USGO10 [-\]: a must play
USGO10 [-\]: this is what she recommends
]
;W[bn];B[cl]LB[bm:A]
C[jleone [5k\]: thx
USGO10 [-\]: black's peep at A can take away w's eye shape
USGO10 [-\]: b should do that
USGO10 [-\]: now b has a target
coldnight [1k\]: to keep attacking to get sente here right?
USGO10 [-\]: Feng Yun likes this style of play; very strong reading
]
))
(;B[cj]
C[USGO10 [-\]: this is a stronger shape
Rocker [4d\]: w d12 is a joseki move?
USGO10 [-\]: also, aim to hane at e14
coldnight [1k\]: the hane is stil possibel later
coldnight [1k\]: possible*
]
))
(;B[ef]
C[USGO10 [-\]: b may want to hane
];W[ci]TR[ef]
C[USGO10 [-\]: but w has this cut
Rocker [4d\]: bad exchange
USGO10 [-\]: this hane is a very powerful shape, but the cut at c11 is too expensive to pay
coldnight [1k\]: yes 
chute [2k\]: obvious
]
))
(;W[bg]
C[USGO10 [-\]: this is the normal move
USGO10 [-\]: to make eye shapes
]
;B[ef];W[dh];B[eg];W[di]
C[USGO10 [-\]: this is the joseki
Hellhuman [4k\]: i prefer blacks position here :x
]
;B[jf]TR[ie]
C[coldnight [1k\]: one of the joseki
coldnight [1k\]: but it looks equal still
Rocker [4d\]: j17
KoReNJe [3d\]: can w survive at j17 area?
Shadowrun [6k\]: only cho chicun
KoReNJe [3d\]: lol
USGO10 [-\]: black's next move could somewhere here to sinish the moyo
USGO10 [-\]: finish
]
))
(;B[cd]
C[martin3141 [3k\]: what about c17 instead?
USGO10 [-\]: b would play here
]
;W[bc];B[ce];W[be];B[df]
C[USGO10 [-\]: white will be enclosed
USGO10 [-\]: and it is no good at all
coldnight [1k\]: very very bad for white
Rocker [4d\]: b18 was a new joseki?
USGO10 [-\]: so this is not a new move
coldnight [1k\]: no it was a misstake 
]
))
(;B[de]
C[nogonow [2k\]: keep s pl
];W[bd];B[ch]
C[just9x9 [-\]: is there supposed to be sound?
nogonow [2k\]: look and have questions
USGO10 [-\]: Feng Yun says this is the correct order of the moves in this joseki; the moves were reversed by the game recorder (our apologies)
Erstnick [?\]: please concentrate on the game.
USGO1 [-\]: Sorry!
Rocker [4d\]: IS she stronger than rui 9p?
]
;W[df];B[ce];W[be]))